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> Weld procedure questions
fastrhino
post Jun 24 2008, 01:52 AM
Joined: 29-Oct 05



We are working to AS 1554 part 4 which is the Australian welding standard for Q&T steels.

I am new to the position of welding supervisor in this company and also new to this standard.

Having reviewed the procedures I feel we need to requalify our procedure and some case start again with new procedures for the current work we are doing.

1 what positions is a welder qualified for if the test has been done in vert up 25mm thick, my collegue believes our welders are qualified for everything in all positions, I think all but over head and vert down with a range of 17 mm to 37.5mm

more questions to come unsure.gif

mick
Keel
post Jun 24 2008, 12:09 PM
Joined: 29-Jan 07



Hello Mick

I've got my 1554 part 1 here (hopefully the same). Are you talking plate or pipe, fillet or butt?

In essential variables it allows a range of .75 to 1.5 the thickness of the test plate. So 25mm= 18.75mm/37.5mm.

Where you working now?

Keel
Keel
post Jun 24 2008, 12:28 PM
Joined: 29-Jan 07



Hey Mick

What happened to that drink we were supposed to have last year?

If your interested There is a course just started at Subi tafe for welding supervisors. It covers AS1554.

Keel
Ballbearing
post Jun 24 2008, 09:37 PM
Joined: 9-Dec 07



Mick,
I pity you having to work with 1554, I have worked with it for years and it is a nightmare.
A friend of mine was on the committee who wrote the codes and he has admitted they are full of errors.
Vertical Up qualifies you for vertical up and flat only. Vertical up and overhead qualifies you for all positions.However, if you qualify to AS2980 (which is accepted by AS/NZS 1554) you only need to do the overhead for all positional qualification.
I have a copy of WTIA Technical Note 11 which is a commentary on the 1554 codes, basically it explains some of the mysteries of the codes.
PM me or send your e-mail and I will forward you a copy,
Cheers,
BB
fastrhino
post Jun 25 2008, 01:45 AM
Joined: 29-Oct 05



thanks guys, just wanted to check my interpretation of the code was correct.

mick
themigman
post Sep 19 2008, 04:41 PM
Joined: 19-Sep 08



as far as i am aware a welding code like the 1 i have a 3G codes u for everything up to that position and below . eg a 5g will code u for 1 2 3 and 4 g. downhand horizontal vertical up and overhead
Ballbearing
post Sep 19 2008, 08:11 PM
Joined: 9-Dec 07



Themigman,
Most codes will not allow you to weld every position with a 5G qualification. That must be obtained with a 6G qualification.
In ASME IX 5G qualifies you for Flat, Vertical and Overhead. Horizontal is not included.
To be qualified in "all positions" for pipe you need a 2G and 5G qualification or a 6G qualification.
Regards,
BB
Eddy Current
post Sep 21 2008, 09:15 PM
Joined: 1-Sep 08



fasrtrhino.

Firstly I would disagree with ballbearing AS1554 is a simple std to follow and gives you alot af room to manover. The AS1554 series has been written by Engineers who have vast experience in the welding field and have tried to write a set of standards that allow the minimum testing. I have personnally spoken with these engineers and they are willing to take on board any comments that qualified personnel have in order to improve the stds and make them easier to follow and or interprate.

There is no real alternative but to spend some time searching through any std to find the information you need until you become familiar with it. Its easy to ask someone else but you will never learn where to find the info or even gaurantee that the info someone has given you is correct. This is not intended as negitive comment more so as advice as you need to be sure yourself, I know the position you can find yourself in. I am happy to offer help if I can, time permitting.

Welder approval according to position is given in Table 4.12.2 page 40.

3G (or VU as1554) on plate gives 1G, 3G plate butts, 1G pipe & 1F, 2F & 3F.

The thickness range quoted by keel is for procedure NOT for a welder qual. Thickness is not an essential variable for a welder qual therefore they can weld any thickness.

You might find there are short 1 or 2 day courses ran by the WTIA in reading various stds there has just been one on ASME IX and AS3992

Ed.


Ballbearing
post Sep 22 2008, 02:55 AM
Joined: 9-Dec 07



Eddy Current,
Mr Bruce Cannon who is the chairman of the Australian Standards committee WD 003 and co/author of AS/NZS 1554 told me a few years ago that there were numerous "grey" areas in AS 1554 and they were endeavouring to have these corrected in following editions of the standard. That is why Technical Note 11 was brought out, to clarify the "grey" areas. AS/NZS 1554 Part 1 is 109 pages long and the Technical clarification for it is 100 pages long, surely that tells you something.
The statement that welders can weld on any thickness is incorrect and misleading.
Clause 4.12.2 (b)....shall be required to demonstrate an ability to comply with the appropriate requirements of this Standard by means of a macro test for [b]all welding procedures [/b]required on the job.
That means if you have a procedure on 8 mm plate that WPS is only valid from 6 mm to 12 mm in accordance with Table 4.11(a) (o) (0.75 to 1.5 times test plate thickness) The welder who welded the procedure qualification coupon is then qualified for 6 - 12 mm.
16 mm test plate will qualify for 12 mm to 24 mm (another macro for the welder)
32 mm test plate will qualify for 24 mm to 48 mm (another macro for the welder)
And then, as you are probably aware Clause 4.1.2 (g) gives you no upper limit if test coupon is equal to or greater than 36 mm.
That would mean 4 macro tests to qualify a welder for all thicknesses.
If you find the standard easy to work with, congratulations. I worked with it for years and it gave me that many headaches that I am quite pleased to have seen the last of it.
Regards,
BB
Eddy Current
post Sep 22 2008, 09:13 AM
Joined: 1-Sep 08



Ballbearing

AS1554 Section 4.11 is for requalification of welding procedures not welder qualifiaction and table 4.11a essential variables for welding procedures. As stated in the first para 4.11

QUOTE 1: Where a change in an essential variable for a welding procedure exceeds the relevant limits
given in Tables 4.11(A)and 4.11(B), the welding procedure shall be requalified in
accordance with Table 4.7.1.



QUOTE 2: Welders not already qualified for the welding process and position required by the
welding procedure under the conditions of employment shall be required to
demonstrate an ability to comply with the appropriate requirements of this Standard
by means of a macro test for all welding procedures required on the job.
(4.12.2 WELDERS)

This paragraph states "welders not already qualified". Therefore only for this reason would they require a test plate and macro. Where it states "for all procedures" this means that they need to be qualified for all procedures not that they need a macro on every procedure you are using on every job that would be rediculous.

Quote 3 Persons operating automatic or semi-automatic equipment and qualified to use a
particular process with an approved consumable or combination of consumables shall
be considered qualified to use other approved consumables or combinations of
consumables with the same process.
4.12.2.c therefore a welder qualified to say a FCAW process can use this process with any approved wire as satated in the standard.

However I do agree with the fact that the welding procedure has many more limitations not as stringent as some standards but the metallurgy is great importance for obvious reasons. A welder qualification is only recognising that a welder has the necessary skill. It is a common mistake for personnel using Welding Standards throughout the world to confuse Welding Procedure essential variables and Welder Qualification limits.

Myself and collegues have spent a lot of time studying this standard in order to use it to our best advantage and have made many succesful consessions based on interpretation of this code.

I will agree to the fact that we can all interperate codes in different ways and often it takes more than one person to provide the correct interpretation often through discussion and there are many more complicated codes than this one.

Regards and good luck in your new venture (without 1554) what ever that might be!

Ed.



Ballbearing
post Sep 22 2008, 08:36 PM
Joined: 9-Dec 07



Good morning Ed,
I will try and explain the reasoning behind my opinions of this standard.
WTIA Technical Note 11 Clause A4.12.2 Welders states " All welders must qualify for eachweld procedure to be used on the job by means of a macro test, unless they can demonstrate successful prior experience with that procedure (eg. through NDE records) or are working within the limitations of the qualifications obtained under Clause 4.12.2 (a)."
The clarification from "all" to "each" makes a huge difference.
Yes it is ridiculous to do it as you have stated but I think the standard is quite clear, if you don't have prior qualifications you must do a macro for "each" procedure to be used.

With regard to prior qualifications the Clause noted above states " In all cases , welders with these qualifications, and those specifically listed in this clause, are deemed to comply only whilst working within the limitations of their original qualification (note especially the limitations within AS 2980)
That means that if you are submitting an alternative qualification (eg. AS/NZS 3992, AS 2980, ASME IX, EN 287 Pt 1, AWS D1.1, ISO 9606-1) you must comply with the thickness tolerances nominated in those codes.
AS 1796 and NZS 4711 both have extensive training and qualification requirements but no thickness limitations as far as I am aware of. However, they would still have to qualify with the AS/NZS 1554 WPS thickness requirements.

I could waffle on for hours about the anomalies in this standard but I think I would be shot down very quickly by welders in the UK who don't give a toss about AS/NZS 1554.
I just wanted to clarify my disagreement to your statement that there was no thickness limitations for welder quals.
Regards,
BB
Keel
post Sep 23 2008, 02:02 PM
Joined: 29-Jan 07



So What's the answer?

Is there no thickness limitations to welder quals?

My understanding is there is not.

Keel
Eddy Current
post Sep 24 2008, 11:05 AM
Joined: 1-Sep 08



Keel: I say there is no thickness range for a welder qual to 1554. However they must work to the range of the WPS. ohmy.gif

Welders qualified to Standards such as AS 1796, AS 2980, AS/NZS 3992, NZS 4711 or ISO 9606-1 shall be deemed to be qualified to weld where AS1554 is specified as the application code but will need to work within the constrants of the qualifiying code.

(bb: sorry you haven't convinced me otherwise. Are you working in the UK, OZ or other? rolleyes.gif )
Ballbearing
post Sep 24 2008, 08:15 PM
Joined: 9-Dec 07



Eddy Current,
I'm cool with that.
I think your response to Keel basically answers the question.
I was just trying to make the point that it is a very "loose" standard.
For example, have you ever seen a code or standard that doesn't nominate a minimum NDE/NDT requirement ? AS/NZS 1554 only has a recommended amount.
I finish my contract in New Caledonia today, a couple of weeks break and then off to Madagascar.
Cheers,
BB
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