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> Overlay consumable usage help?
gtwelder
post Mar 29 2018, 09:15 PM
Joined: 26-Sep 08



Good evening all.

We have been asked to look to quote a job doing inconel overlay and itís something myself or the company we work for has felt with. We have had people help give us quotes but the welding supplier has come back with a quote that seams excessively high to me.

So what Iím looking for is help with working out an estimate on the amount of welding wire required to complete the job.

So the area we are overlaying is approx 45 Mtrs2. We are looking for a minimum deposited layer no less than 2mm in thickness. We will be using 1.2mm solid wire with an argon, 2% oxygen mix for gas. The process wil mainly be ran downhill in progression.

Any help will greatly be appreciated.

We will also potentially be looking for tempoary labour to help with this job if successful so if people are interested then message me and I will get back to you.

Many Thanks in advance

Gary.
Technic Al
post Mar 30 2018, 10:34 AM
Joined: 14-Oct 03



You should use about 20 kg per mm of thickness. So if precisely 2mm thick thats 40 kg but I should expect more so probably 60Kg

Inconel 625 is expensive. I dont know the current prices.

Is the base a Steel grade? Has the client mentioned an Fe content? Theres usually a limit on the Fe content on the surface which means you need minimal dilution.
Technic Al
post Mar 30 2018, 10:49 AM
Joined: 14-Oct 03



Just realised you mentioned Ar/2% O2 Mix.....No...it will crack

Pure Argon is needed....Argon Helium can be used but increases diliution
gtwelder
post Mar 30 2018, 01:17 PM
Joined: 26-Sep 08



Hi technical

When you say use about 20kg per mom of thickness. What area would that be over. So if we have 45m2 area that we require then what would your suggested total weight of wire required.
We are welding to 16mo3 which is a creep resistant steel.
The dilution need s to be minimal as possible.
Ok I will go back to the supplier and say we will use pure argon as shielding which will also cost us less.

Thanks again and look forward to your reply.
gtwelder
post Mar 30 2018, 02:35 PM
Joined: 26-Sep 08



Hi technical

When you say use about 20kg per mom of thickness. What area would that be over. So if we have 45m2 area that we require then what would your suggested total weight of wire required.
We are welding to 16mo3 which is a creep resistant steel.
The dilution need s to be minimal as possible.
Ok I will go back to the supplier and say we will use pure argon as shielding which will also cost us less.

Thanks again and look forward to your reply.
Technic Al
post Mar 30 2018, 05:25 PM
Joined: 14-Oct 03



20kg per mm over the 45 m2....so you will need 40Kg of wire IF you manage precisely 2mm thick....but you wont so I would suggest buying 60kg

Inconel 625 is 8.44g per cm3

If Fe is an issue make sure you buy low Fe wire......some can be quite high

Most of this cladding is done with Fronius cladding machines which are actually TIG but the procedures have been perfected to give low dilution....over a number of layers

PS check out my maths I might have done it wrong

45m3 i= 4500 cm3 x 37980 g = 40Kg (ish)

so thats 40Kg per mm

I think Ive divided by 2 when I should have multiplied

Can anyone do sums?????
rotten_root
post Apr 2 2018, 05:32 AM
Joined: 19-Jan 08



Hi all,

We do a lot of Hotwire TIG overlay and deposit roughly 1.2kg / hr @ 250 cm/min wire speed.

This would give us a deposition of 2mm over 45000mm2 / hr.

Based on that it works out as 26kg / M2.

1170kg for your 45m2

RR
Technic Al
post Apr 2 2018, 10:08 AM
Joined: 14-Oct 03



RR......cant see how you got from your first bit to the 26Kg/M2

1170Kg seems too much to me

We know for definite that 625 weighs 8,44 grams/Cm3

What we need is how many cm3 is there in 45 M2 at 2mm thick...Its the units that are confusing me...how many decimal points

we will get there
rotten_root
post Apr 2 2018, 11:35 AM
Joined: 19-Jan 08



Hi Al, let me explain.

When we clad with HW TIG we run @ 250mm / min travel speed with 250cm/min wire speed.

We step 3mm ever revolution of the job giving 750mm2 / min @ 2mm weld height.

250cm of 1.2mm 625 wire weighs 20g so 1mm2 weighs 0.026666666666667g x this by 1í000í000 for your 1M2 gives you 26.66666666666667kg / M2

X this by your 45m2 gives you 1200kg. I didnít add the decimal points previously hence the 30kg difference.

We donít deal with mm3 so canít compare to your calculations but this has proved very accurate for us.

Hope this helps.

RR
Technic Al
post Apr 2 2018, 05:25 PM
Joined: 14-Oct 03



Im not sure what youre doing. I dont see how you got from the weight of 1.2mm wire to 1mm2.
Anyway 1mm2 is just surface area so it weighs nothing....it has to be mm3 to have mass.

Think concrete....how much do you need to fill 5 metres x 3 metres.........depends on how deep you want it


45m2 x 0.002m (2mm) = 0.09 m3 = 90000 mm3 x 0.84 g/mm3 (density of 625) = 75600g or 76Kg

I think he needs 76Kg

but Im open to debate unsure.gif unsure.gif unsure.gif


rotten_root
post Apr 3 2018, 06:14 AM
Joined: 19-Jan 08



Right Al,

Got it sussed.

Going by your weight of 8.44g/cm3.

1 m2 x 2cm height is 20í000cm3 x 8.44= 168í000g

This is giving you 10m2 at 2mm thickness.

Divide the 168í800 by 1000 to give you 168.8kg for your 10 layers at 2mm.

Divide this by 10 to give you 1m2 @ 2mm thickness and you get 16.88kg / m2 .

For reference I checked Aalcoís plate weight calculation and 1m2 of 2mm 625 plate is 16.9kg.

Giving a total weight of 759.6kg for your 45m2.

But as you rightly said obtaining exactly 2mm thickness will be difficult Iíd x this by 1.5 giving 1139.4kg

We usually quote smaller parts ie flanges / casing hangers so our calculations as ok for this but I will take on board this method and try and apply it to our applications.

RR
Technic Al
post Apr 3 2018, 10:49 AM
Joined: 14-Oct 03



So basically we have come to the same answer but with the decimal point in a different place........so its either 76 Kg or 760 Kg

Thats the bit Ive been struggling with

GTWELDER..........what was the original estimate?
gtwelder
post Apr 3 2018, 01:01 PM
Joined: 26-Sep 08



Good afternoon gents.

The original quote was for 1300kg of weld metal require for 45m2 which I thought was a lot. I agree with you both that it should be approx 759.6 is the total weight of weld deposit required. Although this doesnít allow for human error or wastage due to spatter etc. I am going to say that we will approx need 1000kg for each 45m2.
Both of your help is much appreciated.

Cheers

Gary
Technic Al
post Apr 3 2018, 04:16 PM
Joined: 14-Oct 03



I think its 76Kg for the precise 2mm thick so probably 50% more

But

We will see....I suppose
gtwelder
post Apr 3 2018, 07:24 PM
Joined: 26-Sep 08



Thanks for the info with the Aalco weight calculation tool. I went on there and put the 4.5m X 10m for the area and it came back with 760kg roughly. So puts us all roughly in the same area depending on how the maths works out.
Technic Al
post Apr 3 2018, 09:30 PM
Joined: 14-Oct 03



A friend asked me how many rolls of wallpaper I bought for my lounge

I said 10 so he bought 10 as his lounge is the same size

When he had finished he had 5 left

He said to me. You said it took 10 rolls of wallpaper to do the lounge, so I bought 10 and Ive got 5 left

I said....So have I.
Test my Mettle
post Apr 9 2018, 09:29 PM
Joined: 22-Aug 04



Sorry, bit of a late response, been a while and I dont often venture on here. Just out of interest why downhill progression? and was it in as welded condition or was it machined?
rodofgod
post Apr 25 2018, 07:59 PM
Joined: 23-Feb 03



Entering a bit late into this conversation, I used to do a lot of Inco 625 overlay on incinerator wall tubes etc, very expensive. Dilution is key as has been mentioned, dont waste cash on mix gases, dont work not needed.
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