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> Interpretation of 15614 standard
msmkua
post Sep 11 2017, 08:15 AM
Joined: 23-Jan 09



Good day all,
could somebody clarify statement from 15614-1, based on the following example:

WPQR been qualified on butt weld ,welded both side , multi, 10mm. Cover from 5 to 20.
Will it cover 5mm butt weld welded both sides using single run on each side?
Thank you
MSMK
msmkua
post Sep 12 2017, 04:10 AM
Joined: 23-Jan 09



No body?
Is it too difficult question or too easy so nobody bother?
Ok, i rephrase it.
Procedure for 5mm butt weld both sides , based on WPQR performed on 10mm butt weld both sides been rejected. Is this valid?
regards
excess pen
post Sep 12 2017, 09:44 AM
Joined: 29-Mar 10



Is it the joint type thats the problem?. For example a single Vee butt joint doesnt cover a single bevel butt joint. The procedure sizes match up ok.


Excess
msmkua
post Sep 12 2017, 12:39 PM
Joined: 23-Jan 09



Excess pen,
i am talking about 15614-1, and i am not aware that single V does not cover single bevel. AWS yes, but not 15614-1. Can you tell me where it is in 15614-1?
My question was about multi and single run. Original procedure is butt weld welded both sides using multi run deposit.
Regards
Ballbearing
post Sep 12 2017, 12:55 PM
Joined: 9-Dec 07



Instead of complaining why nobody has answered your question why not actually look at the code you are supposed to be working too !!!!!

8.4.3 Type of joint/weld
h) It is not permitted to change a multi-run deposit into a single run (or single run on each side) or vice versa for a given process.
msmkua
post Sep 12 2017, 05:51 PM
Joined: 23-Jan 09



Dear Balbearing,
It is actually 8.4.3 J), not 8.4.3 H), so i think you need to read the standard ,not me or buy a new copy of 15614-1: 2017 which been published while ago and superseded old 15614-1:2004 which clearly tells me that your Quality system is failing if you still using and refer to the withdrawn standard.

However, all i wanted is to see comments or thoughts, in regards to 8. 4.3 j), as i never thought that welding 5mm butt weld using single run both sides, can not be covered but multi run but weld procedure, but if i would do the same joint and put 2 runs both side , then all comply to the standard.
Now i am realizing that i was misinterpreting this statement.
Regards
Ballbearing
post Sep 20 2017, 04:12 AM
Joined: 9-Dec 07



msmkua,
It was actually the 2012 edition I was referring to.

I have not seen the 2017 edition but a paper by TWI explaining the changes has been published.
Do you require hardness or impact tests for your application ?
If not, you can now use a multi-run procedure to weld single run and vice versa.

8.4.3
When impact or hardness requirements apply, it is not permitted to change a multi-run deposit into a single run deposit (or single run on each side) or vice versa for a given process

TWI explanation:
(j): a change from single to multi-run, and vice-versa, is expected to affect hardness and toughness in the HAZ and weld metal. If hardness and toughness are not to be tested, this change should not apply.

Regards,
BB
msmkua
post Sep 20 2017, 05:05 PM
Joined: 23-Jan 09



BB,
All this understandable , it is not first time i am using this code, i thought i know it from top to bottom,
but for some reason i ignored this statement ( or single run on each side ) for all this time. For some reason i thought it apply for fillets.

Just for example, how would you weld lets say 8mm full pen butt weld? Of course you would not mess about with root run ? You would prep the plate both side 4mm and weld both side applying 1 run on each side, the same with 6mm or even 5. But now i understand that my multi run WPQR 10mm welded single sided with no backing, which cover from 5 to 20 will not cover this sequence, as i am using single deposit per side. But if i do a macro photo, all i see is 2 fused weld metal deposits, 2 runs. So what is the point to have 0.5t-2t range, if applying 2 runs on each side of 8mm butt weld is acceptable, but not practical, but applying one run each side is not acceptable but is practical.
Do you think 8mm butt weld with single run per side will significantly increase HAZ Hardness value in compare to 2 runs on each side?
Or where do you think CVN test results will be higher in plate done with one run per side or 2 runs per side?

Or, single sided multi run WPQR with no backing, not covering welding the same plate with backing run, as soon as i understand, unless you applying two runs as a backing, so you have multi deposit on each side.
I also understand now that i did mistake with welder qualifications using single v butt weld no baking.
Welders, who could not manage root run, we allowed to do a backing run, and qualify them for butt welds with backing, which is again is incorrect as this is out of the WPQR approval range, as i applied single run backing on other side, not 2 runs (multi) . Lloyd s successfully issued certificates .
I could be totaly wrong, please correct me.
And yes, HV and CVN is required, is S355J2+N grade
Regards
MS









Sorry, mistake
3 to 2t.
regards
Ballbearing
post Sep 21 2017, 06:13 AM
Joined: 9-Dec 07



msmkua,
I cannot comment on the PQR part of your question as I have no idea of the reasoning behind the code committees decision.
With the welder qualification your weld tests are perfectly fine.

"...................it is not permitted to change a multi-run deposit into a single run deposit (or single run on each side) or vice versa for a given process"

You have not changed anything.

You have a PQR/WPS with multi-run one side and single run (backing run) on the other side so if the welders follow that they are fine.

However, with ASME IX a single sided WPS with backing qualifies production welding with or without backing but I do not think this is the same for ISO 15614.
As you have the latest edition you need to check Section 8.4.3 to see if there are any other changes.

I personally think you cannot qualify welders for single sided / no backing with a WPS that is single-sided with backing.

Regards,
BB
msmkua
post Sep 21 2017, 12:21 PM
Joined: 23-Jan 09



BB,
thanks for your comments,
but the problem is my WPQR is Single V with No Backing, so i should not permit welders using backing run, as it out of the procedure qualification range, as i adding single run on other side. If they would do it with 2 runs on the back, then all would be fine ))
regards
MSMK
Ballbearing
post Sep 21 2017, 12:24 PM
Joined: 9-Dec 07



However, with ASME IX a single sided WPS with backing qualifies production welding with or without backing.....

This is what I meant to say:

However, with ASME IX a single sided PQR with backing allows a WPS to be written for production welding with or without backing.......
Ballbearing
post Sep 21 2017, 12:31 PM
Joined: 9-Dec 07



msmkua,
You started this post talking about a WPQR butt weld welded both sides now you are talking about a single-sided butt weld WPQR without backing.
I am getting confused ?????

".....but the problem is my WPQR is Single V with No Backing, so i should not permit welders using backing run, "

Read 8.4.3 carefully - you can add a backing run, you cannot take away a backing run.
And yes it can be a single run.
You seem to be misinterpreting the whole issue of changing from multi to single run deposits.

Cheers,
BB
msmkua
post Sep 21 2017, 06:22 PM
Joined: 23-Jan 09



BB,
statement:

"welds made from one side without backing
qualify welds made from both sides and welds with
backing;
This is in 8.4.3 -2017 edition

Statement you have mentioned "you can add a backing run, you cannot take away a backing run" does not exist in 8.4.3-2017 as well as in 2012

As soon as i understand "welds made from one side without backing
qualify welds made from both sides and welds with
backing", means that you indeed can weld both side or with backing but it has to be multi deposit if WPQR is multi run, otherwise you will not comply to this: " it
is not permitted to change a multi-run deposit into
a single run deposit (or single run on each side) or·
vice versa for a given process.
My wpqr is multi run both side, so i can not just use this WPQR and weld let say 20mm but weld, with single backing run.

I also have multi run WPQR performed on Single V butt weld with out backing, so as you said i can use it for WPS with backing, but backing must be multi run, not single, otherwise i will not comply to this statement " it
is not permitted to change a multi-run deposit into
a single run deposit (or single run on each side) ·
vice versa for a given process.
Is it make sense now?
Regards
MSMK
msmkua
post Sep 21 2017, 06:36 PM
Joined: 23-Jan 09



BB,
i agree with " Read 8.4.3 carefully - you can add a backing run, you cannot take away a backing run."
it is indeed apply for WPQR performed with backing or both side. With this wpqr you can not weld single sided butt weld.

But i am not sure about " And yes it can be a single run", ?? How come?? I have done my test using 3 runs both sides. Now you saying, i can prep the joint different way, apply 5 runs one side ( multi ) and 1 run ( single ) on other side?? But what about this " is not permitted to change a multi-run deposit into
a single run deposit (or single run on each side) or·
vice versa for a given process. "
Please explain if i am wrong
Regards
MSMK
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